Until 1832 the place of worship for the villagers of Penkhull was situated nearly one mile away in what is now the town of Stoke near to the River Trent. The parish church was sited here from possibly Anglo-Saxon times as early travellers crossed the Trent nearby. It was from this River and the Foulhay Brook that a moat was drawn to provide protection for the early church which developed from an even earlier preaching cross.
The congregation was drawn from most of the pottery district of today, but in particular Penkhull. The outlying areas of the parish came to have separate chapels, but continued to be dependent upon the mother church of Stoke. For centuries this church carried out its priestly functions until the early eighteenth century, when the demands upon staff and administration outnumbered its resources. Subsequently a number of Stoke Rectory Acts divided and sub-divided the once substantial parish, leaving Penkhull remaining in Stoke Parish until 1853.
The growth of Methodism
As Penkhull developed as a working-class suburb of Stoke, a need for a place of worship in the village to cater for the growing population became clear. The beginning of the nineteenth century, however, saw a move away from the established church to Methodism, which, at its peak was a serious challenge to the dominance of the establishment. The most serious criticism of the established church was its neglect of the pastoral responsibilities especially to the poor. Partly as a result of the void between the poor and the church, working-class potters and miners turned to Methodism. The Methodist movement grew fast throughout the country recording 89,528 members in 1801, increasing to 249,119 thirty years later, a growth unequalled in any other nonconformist church.
After Wesley’s death in 1791, the Wesleyan Methodists, as they were then known, became divided, the first breakaway being the ‘Methodist New Connexion’. Open-air revival meetings, later known as camp meetings were organised a few years later at Mow Cop nearly eight miles to the north of Penkhull to revitalise reducing congregation numbers. The first was held on May 31st, 1807, followed by further meetings, although against the wishes of the Wesleyan Conference. Both Hugh Bourne and William Clowes, the organisers, were expelled from the mother connexion in 1808 and 1810 respectively. As a result of this action, a further breakaway movement was established known as the Primitive Methodists, who established their first chapel in Tunstall.
Early 19th century changes
The early nineteenth century, an age of mechanism, seemed to muster that unimproved concern at the death of the spirit that was the parent of romanticism. The Anglican Church, conscious of decline, made stringent efforts to reverse the situation by the provision of new churches. The urban working classes, largely alienated, became increasingly apathetic to church-going. In many cases people who had been uprooted from their country parishes, by coming into new urban centres in search of employment, became indifferent to religion. Social mobility and demographical increase often left them outside the scope of the established church, a situation made worse by the emergence of the dissenting sects.
After the war with France and the defeat of Napoleon in 1815, the British people of all classes expected a period of prosperity. Times were hard however as there was no improvement in conditions of employment for the next seven years. K.S. Inglis attempts to put churchgoing into perspective. during the nineteenth century, the habit of attending religious worship was not normal among the working classes. From the beginning of the century, the spiritual destitution of the lower orders was a commonplace of discussion.
Dissenters were so often regarded as second-class citizens suffering considerable discrimination. They were not allowed to marry in their own place of worship but had to use the parish church until Lord John Russell presented his second Bill to Parliament in 1835. After 1837, five Dissenter’s Chapels were licensed within Stoke parish for marriages. Until January 1836 Dissenter’s were also obliged to pay church rates towards the upkeep of the Established Church buildings, churchyards and burial grounds. A rate, decided upon by Church Wardens through Vestry meetings, was imposed upon all inhabitants of the parish, Anglican and Dissenters alike. A poll was taken in the several quarters of Stoke parish in January 1834, when the proposal was defeated by a considerable majority. Church rates were abolished nationally by Gladstone in 1868, after thirty years of agitation.
The Church of England came under fire from the radical press in the disturbed years after the war, when rapid deflation of the economy and cyclical depressions meant that the church was seen as an institution unwilling to attend to the people’s welfare. The state of the country as a whole was greatly affected by the 1815 Corn Laws, prohibiting the import of foreign wheat until the price of home-grown had reached 80/- per quarter. The purpose of this law was to protect the farmers and landowners against the fall in prices if foreign-grown grains were allowed to enter freely into Britain. The poor suffered the consequences as the law kept the price of bread artificially high whilst the agricultural labourers found it made no difference to their wages.
Church of England Expansion
In 1809, the government sought to supplement religious provision in urban districts by making the first of eleven annual grants of £100,000 to what was known as Queen Anne’s Bounty, enabling an increase in stipends for poor livings. It was a time when state leaders were becoming apprehensive about the problems associated with the sudden high increase of population in industrial towns, and the possibility of civil unrest. A plan to build more churches and therefore, hopefully to present Christian principles to the working classes, became of paramount importance. It was essential to contain a situation already experienced in France.
In 1818, the government introduced a “New Church Bill”, allocating one million pounds for new church building together with a body of commissioners to administer the provision of the Act. A further half million pounds was granted in 1824. By 1830, one hundred and thirty-four new churches had been built and fifty more were in construction. These national figures included the rebuilding of St. Peter ad Vincula Church at Stoke, subsequently followed by St. Mark’s, Shelton, St. Paul’s Burslem, and St. James’, Longton.
The established church was soon to discover that the population increase was not a temporary phenomenon. It struggled to keep up with the pace of change but never quite succeeded in meeting the needs of the existing population however it tackled the problem. But the increase in population was not the only obstacle. With the rise of the Oxford Movement the church itself was becoming more divided with increasing pressure for change. There were also the effects of the growing Chartist movement, which campaigned for political reform, seeking to pressurise government for improvements by actions of civil unrest.
Upon reflection, the 1818 Act looked backwards as well as forwards. Its authors were clearly convinced that the ministers of new churches could, in the main, be paid out of pew rents, but short-sightedly provided less then a fifth of all sittings for the poor often restricted to either the side, rear of the gallery of the church. It was into this national picture that Primitive Methodism developed and became influential. Both Bourne and Clowes made impressive use of field preaching and camp meetings as means of increasing membership. Penkhull became a part of this religious fervour, in 1815, for Ward records a chapel in Penkhull as follows:
Back to Penkhull Methodist
The first Primitive Methodists Chapel in Stoke was built in Penkhull in 1815 and holds upwards of one hundred persons. The first documented evidence of a place of worship to serve the growing population of working-class people was in 1819, when Hugh Bourne applied for the registration of a dwelling house for divine worship.
To the Right Rev. the Lord Bishop of Lichfield and Coven- try and to His Registrar: I Hugh Bourne of Bemersley in the Parish of Norton in the Moors, in the County of Staffordshire, do hereby Certify that a dwelling house and premises situated in Penkhull in the Parish of Stoke-upon-Trent, and now in the holding and occupation of Anthony Athersmith of the same place are intended to be used as a place of Religious Worship by an assembly of Protestants and I hereby request you to register the same, according to The provision of King George the Third entitled “An Act to repeal certain Acts and amend other Acts, relating to Religious Worship and Assemblies and persons teaching and preaching therein”, and I hereby request a certificate thereof.
Witness my hand, this eight days of September in the year of our Lord, One Thousand, Eight Hundred and Nineteen.
signed HUGH BOURNE William Athersmith is recorded in the Land Tax records of 1806.
From these registrations, the course of the Primitive Methodist Movement can be traced through the many petitions made by Hugh Bourne and other early Primitive leaders. The fact that Bourne was the petitioner of the Penkhull entry is not significant in itself for he also registered chapels in all parts of the country, for registration of the Primitive Methodists was very centralised. Observations from the entries indicate that the applications for registration were made in multiples: for example, in the years 1807 and 1811, Hugh Bourne petitioned for four places to be registered. A licence for religious worship by nonconformists could be obtained from either the bishop of the diocese or the justice of the peace. The registration records confirm that registration was infrequent. In 1818 only ten chapels were registered in the Lichfield diocese, in 1819 there were a total of thirty-two, whereas the following year only fifteen were registered. It may have been that registration was treated lightly by the church authorities, and only when enough chapels were up and running thought registration necessary. Therefore, Ward’s note of 1815 may be correct but the meeting-house remained un-registered until Hugh Bourne deemed it necessary to register it in 1819. Everitt also points to this fact that many non-conformist groups originated as “cottage meetings”, that is as informal societies gathered on Sundays around the hearth of one of their members. Everitt concluded that “cottage meetings” often resulted in the establishment of permanent chapels, for the ultimate aim of forming a fully-fledged religious society was normally the motive behind them.
Methodism in the Potteries was, at its height, a serious challenge to the established church. The first chapel to meet the needs of the Penkhull villagers was erected in 1799 only half a mile away in what is now Epworth Street, Stoke, in the Wesleyan tradition, but was replaced in 1801 with a new larger chapel built to accommodate one thousand people. The New Methodist Connexion followed in 1806 with Mount Zion situated only around the corner from the Wesleyan Chapel in Hill Street, itself being replaced in 1816, by a new chapel offering accommodation for three hundred persons.
These two chapels created considerable embarrassment for the Anglican church in Stoke, since the inhabitants of Penkhull, having no place of worship themselves, had to pass the doors of either chapel on the way to the parish church.
By 1830, a replacement for the 1819 Primitive Methodist dwelling house at Penkhull was found, for the Bishop’s Registers record that on the 5th November 1830 a chapel at Penkhull was registered by Joseph Gallimore of Newcastle in the occupation of William Sutton. From the tithe return of 1850, William Sutton was the occupier of four cottages in Brisley Hill, just off Trent Valley Road to the south of the village centre which may well have been the location for the 1830 place of worship. By 1832 it had become inadequate for the increasing population of Penkhull, as ten Primitive Methodists from comparatively different occupations and parts of the Potteries formed a trust to purchase the site upon which the present chapel is built. The plot, a part of Green Croft, was purchased from Robert Archer, yeoman who lived at Beech Grove, in consideration of £88 8 0d.
To meet the challenge from the Primitive Methodists, the parish church in Stoke erected a Sunday School in the centre of the village green, the site of the present churchyard. Information is sketchy, but the minute book of the Duchy of Lancaster, dated 23rd September 1834, points firmly to its establishment:
Read a petition from the inhabitants of the Parish of Stoke-upon-Trent, praying for a waste hold grant for the erection of a school for the religious instruction of the children residing in Penkhull. The piece of land com- prises of about twenty-two yards in front by thirty in depth. The outcome of this minute was let the petition be complied with.
In 1841, the Government set up a commission to enquire into the state of children employed in The Potteries. Mr Samuel Scriven came to the Borough to investigate working conditions in the pottery factories. Scriven also undertook, as part of his brief, to enquire about schools and Sunday schools and interviewed James Irvine, the Superintendent of the Primitive Methodist Sunday School who recorded that it had been established for seventeen years beginning in 1824, thus confirming that it pre-dated the present chapel building. The report continues:
I am the superintendent teacher, have attended this school in this capacity for two years. We have 64 boys and 56 girls. There are 16 teachers, nine males and seven females. The nature of the instruction is religious, in no instance secular except writing. The books used are the Bible, Testament, “Reading made Easy”, work bearing on religion. They attend the religious worship of the chapel in the afternoon, and are instructed in the morning. Think they improve by their attendance. Most of them are children of factors; are well conducted and respectful to us teachers. We do not see much difference between children of potters and others. I think, however, as compared with other places, not manufacturing, that they are not so good. When boys are taken young to work, they associate with men of bad habits and acquire them. Think that by coming to school they lose evil habits and we endeavour by all the means in our power to inculcate good ones. The room (a chapel) is large, airy, and well ventilated, capable of containing 150 on the girl’s side and eighty on the boy’s side. – James Irvine,
It is not clear by this entry if in fact there are two groups of children. Those “of factors”, meaning perhaps small shop-keepers or business people, and those “of potters”? The word “factors”, may however, be an abbreviated word for “factory workers”. The Anglican entry is made by Ann Taylor, aged 34, who recalls that she had been a Sunday School teacher for six years. This confirms that a Sunday School was established in Penkhull by the Parish Church of Stoke in 1835, Ann Taylor had apparently taught there since its inception.
I am one of the teachers of this establishment; have been a teacher six year; have 48 girls on the books and 46 boys. The system of teaching is the National System, or Bell’s. The books used are of a religious character, such as the Bible, Testament, Prayer. Mr Godfrey, the curate, attends on Sunday mornings, and reads to them. The youngest child at present is four years, the oldest 16. They all go with the teachers to church service; they return to school in the afternoon, and are examined in their catechism. No secular instruction of any kind is imparted. Think they make progress. I do not think that there is any perceptible difference between those who work in factories, and those who do not. They are well conducted, cleanly, and respectful to us as teachers; there are some exceptions. They are regular in their attendance; frequently absent themselves on account of want of shoes and clothing. We have altogether nine teachers, male and female. The room is commodious, airy, well ventilated, and of containing comfortably 150 pupils. – Ann Taylor
Both reports provide considerable insight into religious instruction for the children of Penkhull, and the priority that parents placed upon its importance. Out of a total of 258 children between the age of four and sixteen recorded in the 1841 census return, Scriven reported that 214 (83%) at- tended Sunday School regularly. For most children this was the only “schooling” they received. Day schools, where they existed, were on a daily “school pence” basis, and al- though only costing one or two pence a week, that was still beyond the reach of most working-class families. Many working people, however, who themselves failed to attend church on a regular basis, dispatched their offspring to Sunday Schools. Of course, in crowded homes, in the days before compulsory education, there may be a simple explanation for this; with children at Sunday School, parents were allowed a brief and precious time to themselves.
The teacher-pupil ratio in the two schools is of interest. At the Anglican Sunday School there was a ratio of 10.44 children per teacher, against a ratio of 7.5 in the Methodist Sunday School. Further down the hill in Stoke, a town occupied by manufacturers, traders, people that were educated and philanthropic, in comparison with the more rural and working class Penkhull, the ratio of the Anglican Church of St. Peter’s was 5.76 against the Wesleyan Chapel of 5.5. The New Connexion in Hill Street, Stoke, recorded an attendance of three hundred and eighty-eight, eighteen more than the Wesleyan Chapel, but claimed only fifteen teachers, producing a ratio of 22.5
The Anglican Church in Penkhull
In the early part of the 1840s, the Church of England boasted a promotional movement entitled “The Diocesan Church Building Association”. One of its leaders and prominent speakers was Archdeacon Hodson, who gave an address at Christ Church, Fenton, on the subject of new church building where Mr Herbert Minton, a devout Christian, was in the congregation. Minton was so impressed with Hodson’s address, that at the close of the meeting he spoke with Hodson and announced his intention of building a church at Hartshill half a mile to the north of Penkhull at his own expense.
Following this announcement, the Rev. Thomas Webb Minton, brother of Herbert, promptly intimated his intention of donating substantial funds towards the building of a church for the “populous suburb of Penkhull”. Besides this generous offer, Thomas Webb Minton provided the sum of 2,000 to be invested with the Church Commissioners, the interest from which was to be used towards the salary of the incumbent. Both Herbert and Thomas Webb Minton were sons of Thomas Minton, a prominent potter. The father was born in Shrewsbury in 1765 and after his apprenticeship as an engraver, migrated to London to seek commissions for his skills. It was there he met and married Sarah Webb, shortly afterwards moving to Stoke to become a master engraver for the pottery industry established there. Realising that there was plenty of scope for increasing the production of earthenware, Thomas Minton decided to manufacture his own products in 1793. As a consequence, he purchased a plot of land in the town, on which he built a home and a small factory with two bottle ovens.
Their first son was Thomas Webb, born in 1791 and educated at Audlem Grammar School where he received a classical education under the headship of Nicholas Breakspear, and was later joined by his younger brother Herbert. After their education at Audlem, they both joined the family firm at the age of fourteen years. Thomas Webb was quiet and retiring by nature and benevolent to others, where possible assisting the poor out of his modest salary. His heart was not in potting, and he persuaded his father to dissolve the family partner- ship so he might take Holy Orders in the Church of England. He was subsequently admitted as a sizer at Queen’s College, Cambridge on October 3rd, 1823 as a “Ten Year Man”, he was then aged thirty-two. In 1825, he was ordained priest and at the time Penkhull church was being built was the incumbent of Holy Trinity, Darlington. He married Jane, the third daughter of Joseph Hoskins of Weston, at St. George’s, Everton.
Herbert Minton was born in 1793 and after his father’s death in 1836 became the sole proprietor of the company until the time of his death in 1858. Despite having left the business some twelve years previously, Thomas Webb was left the bulk of his father’s estate. Concerned about the injustice towards his brother, Herbert, and the family, Thomas Webb tried to have the will amended but the Lord Chancellor ruled that the will was legal. As a way of compensation Thomas Webb gave 23,000 to his mother and family, and his younger brother, Herbert, who had been a partner with his father, started up a new business with John Boyle, also taking at a later date a nephew into the business.
Penkhull church is today the dominant feature of the village, situated in the centre where by the late seventeenth century stone quarrying took place. It is from this quarry that stone for the repair of Stoke bridge came from in c1671. Subsequently the quarry filled with water and thereby a large pond formed which is shown on early maps of the village, to the north of the church building. The area in 1777 was described as “copyhold waste”, belonging to the Duchy of Lancaster. On one old plan of the copyhold waste a house and garden in the occupation of Joseph Botham are recorded.
By June 1811, three cottages had been erected upon the site by Samuel Steele of Stoke. The Manorial records refer to this transaction: All those several dwelling houses, gardens and tenements, late parcel of waste hold within the manor, lying near the old stone pit hole, situated in Penkhull with stables adjoining. In July 1835, an additional grant of copyhold waste was conferred at a Special Court Baron, held at Stoke, which reads as follows: containing 660 square yards, situated at Penkhull Green surrounded by common highways, extending opposite the old workhouse, upon which piece of land a school is erected.
The three cottages of 1811 are shown on a Duchy plan dated 1835, drawn up for the purpose of the grant. The plot forms only the central section of the present church-yard, and is contained in a further grant between Queen Victoria for the Duchy of Lancaster on the one part and John Smith, Herbert Minton and John Goodwin on the other. The document refers to: A plot of copyhold land and part of waste containing in measurement, one thousand and thirty-five square yards, whereof three cottages now taken down recently stood.
The first correspondence relating to the present parish church, built in 1842, dates from December 1840, when Thomas Webb Minton wrote to the Church Commissioners, informing them of his intentions of endowing the new parish with 2,000. This was to provide an income for the vicar along with the receipt of pew rents.
To enable any plan to proceed for the church, submission had first to be made to the Duchy of Lancaster to approve such a building on copyhold land. The responsibility for this lay with Mr Fenton, solicitor of Newcastle who was clerk to the Duke of Sutherland as lessee of the Manor of Newcastle-under- Lyme from the Duchy. It was Mr. Fenton who communicated with the Duchy Officer, with regard to land matters. A letter dated Saturday, 19 June 1841, reads:
read a letter from Mr Fenton, dated 31st May 1841, containing an application for a Grant and Enfranchisement of waste land in the Township of Penkhull for the site of a Church and National School.
At the same Duchy Court, a copy of a letter from the Duchy Office to Mr. Fenton, dated the 9 June 1841, was referred to in rather uncomplimentary terms as it would appear that Mr. Fenton was slow in replying to correspondence:
Ordered that Mr Fenton be informed that, in the absence of any answer to the letter addressed to him by the Clerk of the Council on the 9th inst., the Council have considered the application in order that he should be appraised of their determination by the time he wished to have it and that supposing there should be legal power to make the demised grant the application will be complied with as in the cases referred to in Mr Fenton’s letter.
The final approval for the Deed of Conveyance was not approved by the Duchy Court until the 30th September 1842, by which time in fact the church had been erected.
Before the consecration of the new church at Penkhull, Thomas Webb Minton had to petition the bishop of the diocese with an application, stating his intentions and an explanation of how funding was to be met. After the petition was approved by the bishop, the benefactor was then formally acknowledged as having the “Right of Presentation”. In the title of this document, the dedication was not to “Saint Thomas the Apostle”, as the present title, but to “Saint James”.
From correspondence, it appears that the actual consecration date was in doubt, as Mr Fenton, the steward of the Manor, wrote to Lichfield on the 15 September, stating that as steward he had not yet arranged for the grant document. He was waiting for the surveyor to provide a map of the site to enable a Deed of Enfranchisement and Grant to be sent to the Duchy of Lancaster for approval. (46) Two weeks later, the 29 September, a draft grant was submitted by Fenton to Lichfield, asking for a number of alterations, and concluding “I will obtain the Duke of Sutherland’s signature as soon as His Grace returns from Scotland”. Just eight days before the consecration date, Mr Fenton submitted the corrected Deed of Enfranchisement and Grant for the signatures of Smith, Minton and Goodwin as Trustees. The Staffordshire Advertiser records the opening of the church at Penkhull, in the context of the earlier consecration of a new church at Hartshill.
Two days after the consecration of the church at Hart- shill, the new church at Penkhull is also to be consecrated. This, though a much plainer structure is no less a creditable work of the same architects, Messrs Scott and Moffatt of London. We hear the funds for this last-named church are much in arrears; but we have no doubt that the collection in aid of them to be made there and in the more favoured sister church of Hartshill, will be such as the occasion demands.
The first incumbent was Samuel Minton, (1820-1893) son of Rev. Thomas Webb Minton, the patron, who was licensed on the 10 May 1844. Samuel Minton was born in Stoke on March 16th, 1820 and educated at a private school in Lancashire, followed by Rugby and Oxford. The importance attached to his “scholarship” had a bearing upon his clerical fortunes in the Church of England, as it enabled him to take a “title” at his ordination, without having to go through the preliminary process of a curacy.
He was married to Cecil Mary Rosser, daughter of William Henry Rosser, in 1843, by whom he fathered six sons and four daughters. The first two, Mary, born March 1844, and Herbert, born July 1848, were baptised in Penkhull Church. Samuel Minton stood out amongst his contemporaries for his determination to recognise the Christian standing of his non-conformist associates and to preach in their pulpits when invited. He stood almost alone in his support of other Christians, but suffered the penalty of being classed as an eccentric by his academic friends. During his active clerical career, he obtained an M.A.in 1848 (49) the same year he resigned his living at Penkhull. From that year until he took up a new position in 1851 at St. Silas’s, Liverpool he had no other incumbency. Six years later he became the incumbent of Percy Chapel, London. By 1867, Minton, to the great astonishment of many friends, became incumbent of Eaton Chapel, a position held until 1874 when he retired on health grounds. During his active preaching career Mr. Minton also published over sixty separate books, pamphlets and sermons described as ‘unquestionably above average of the publications to which they belong’.
A number of published sermons were compiled in 1847 while curate in charge of Penkhull, mostly against the preaching of Mr Joseph Barker. Minton, challenged to public debate by Barker, declined, quoting previous public meetings between Joseph Barker and Rev. W. Cooke which only ended in public uproar and abuse. Minton concludes one of his sermons with ‘one is almost tempted to envy a Unitarian the luxury of his doctrine of sincerity, but God’s word forbids it.’
In later years, Samuel Minton assumed the name of Minton- Stenhouse. This was done as a condition of his eligibility to inherit, through the Hoskins line of his mother, Calder Abbey, built in 1130, which had been in the Stenhouse name since 1730, leaving no male heir in a direct line.
His father Thomas Webb died in 1868 leaving the Patronage of Penkhull to him. His first appointment thereafter was of Rupert James Rowson., M.A. on the 20 May 1876 at a stipend of 150 p.a. In 1892, Samuel Minton offered Patronage of the living to Frederick Bishop a solicitor living at the Mount on condition that he should donate the sum of 600 to the parish church. By March the following year the Parish Magazine reported: we are happy to announce that the patronage will be transferred to the Rector of Stoke. Mr Bishop, it seems made his offer to accept it under the mistaken notion as to the probable value of the benefice and he no longer desires the patronage. Mr Minton has consented to the transfer.
The benefice was thereby transferred to the Rector of Stoke, where it still remains.
In 1844, a licence was obtained by Samuel Minton for the solemnization of marriages at Penkhull Church under the Act of 1 and 2 William IV c.38, allocating a district to the church. In the original declaration, no allocation of fees was made to the incumbent of St. Thomas and therefore, by neglect, these remained a part of the income to the Rector of Stoke, as the Mother Church. It was not until August 1856 that the oversight was discovered by Moreton, and as a consequence correspondence continued between the Patron and the Church Commissioners until 1863 when the allocation of fees was finally resolved, and a district confirmed.
From the third quarter of the nineteenth century, the population of Penkhull increased considerably, to such an extent that both the Primitive Methodist Chapel and the Anglican Church needed additional accommodation. The Methodists were in the forefront, for as early as 1859 the need for additional seating was expressed. It was not until 1878, however, that the suggestion became a reality with the building of a new Sunday School next to the 1836 Chapel. Funds were inadequate, so a loan of £300 was obtained from Mr John Leigh, a trustee, to settle the account.
Extracted from my M.Phil Thesis, University of Keele. © Richard Talbot
I have all the Birth Marriage and Burial data on spread sheets for Penkhull. Took months to enter these. When I have sorted away to insert these onto this category I will. Any thoughts – appreciated.